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CFI Injector Data
#1

Since I might be picking up some CFI injectors (and the whole 5.0 attached to them for another project...) Does anyone have or know where to find the injector tuning data (slopes, breakpoint, etc...) for the CFI fuel injectors? I know I've seen people more or less just "tweak" factory things like fuel pressure or the VAM to get what they need, but I can't seem to find the data for setting it up in the tune. Or is everyone just taking an educated guess at it based on the nominal conditions and tweaking it from there? If so, any starting points would be helpful.
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#2

Since they were only used and sold for OEM applications, I doubt an actual Ford datasheet is out in the wild. You might be able to find data for a comparable Bosch part number with similar construction. Barring that, you could (pay to) have them characterized by someone with the equipment.
'72 Pinto Runabout-2.3T/T5/MS-II.
I'll show those guys who's in top place, I'll really give'em a hotrod race.
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#3

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I can't speak to "slopes" or "breakpoints", but THIS Stan Weiss injector ID/data chart might be of some interest (scroll down for Bosch). The CFI/TBI 302's found in 80's Crown Vics and Grand Marquis' had two different injector sizes, generally acknowledged by most as being either 46 lb/hr or 52 lb/hr:

Blue-top "46's" = Ford I.D. E0SE-A1A.......Bosch 0280150400
White-top "52's" = Ford I.D. E4ZE-CA.......Bosch 0280150403

And, YES.......they can be used in place of "our" brown-tops with only slight fitment modifications. BUT......lowering f/pressure to compensate for the increased injector size would defeat the whole purpose of installing larger injectors. You might as well just retain yer 35's and increase the f/pres to, say, 60psi.

A better strategy, ASSuming stock EEC engine management, would be to retain the stock pressure (39 psi, with the FPR's manifold-reference hose disconnected) and let the O2 sensor regulate idle and low-speed AFR - but tighten the VAM spring to quasi-compensate for the increased fuel delivery at greater throttle openings and WOT. A WB02 sensor would be needed to determine the accuracy of such an adjustment.

Better still.....the ideal strategy would be to use a PiMP or similar standalone engine management that can be programmed for "X" injector size, then "fine-tunes" according to the (inter-connected) WB02 output. But, of course, that would tend to defeat the whole purpose of using cheap/JY-available CFI injectors, lol.
Placerville, California
(former)  '78 2.3T Courier w/blow-thru Autolite 2bbl carb ~ (current)  '87 2.3T Ranger w/PiMP’d EFI
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#4

Don't use CFI injectors in a port injection application. The spray pattern (cone pattern and droplet size) is designed for atmospheric pressure, not vacuum/boost.

(11-11-2020, 01:29 PM)wickedsnake00 Wrote:  Since I might be picking up some CFI injectors (and the whole 5.0 attached to them for another project...) Does anyone have or know where to find the injector tuning data (slopes, breakpoint, etc...) for the CFI fuel injectors? I know I've seen people more or less just "tweak" factory things like fuel pressure or the VAM to get what they need, but I can't seem to find the data for setting it up in the tune. Or is everyone just taking an educated guess at it based on the nominal conditions and tweaking it from there? If so, any starting points would be helpful.

If you have a wideband, none of the above really matters. Let your AFR reading be your guide and tune accordingly.

And don't use CFI injectors in a port injection application. The spray pattern (cone shape and droplet size) are optimized for atmospheric pressure (above the throttle plates), not vacuum/boost.
I'll keep my guns, money, and freedom. You keep the "change"
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#5

(11-19-2020, 03:12 PM)84CapriRS Wrote:  Don't use CFI injectors in a port injection application. The spray pattern (cone pattern and droplet size) is designed for atmospheric pressure, not vacuum/boost. 
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I respectfully disagree, Capri! 90+ percent of all modern automotive injectors (N/A port-mounted) are spraying into an environment whose pressure varies from positive to negative. Are you implying that engines with artificially-aspirated (supercharged or turbocharged) engines or those that spray downstream from the TB (IOW, ALL modern engines) need/use "special" injectors, lol?

Fuel injectors don't "know" they're spraying into a pressurized or evacuated environment or whether they're spraying upstream or downstream from the TB.....they operate equally well in all applications, according to whatever pressure differential is present. Droplet sizes and spray patterns remain the same, with exception to the spray pattern being affected by charge velocity.  AFAIK, the only type of injectors that need to be avoided are those designed for CNG applications.  <shrug>
Placerville, California
(former)  '78 2.3T Courier w/blow-thru Autolite 2bbl carb ~ (current)  '87 2.3T Ranger w/PiMP’d EFI
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#6

(11-19-2020, 07:24 PM)TurboRay Wrote:  … Are you implying that engines with artificially-aspirated (supercharged or turbocharged) engines or those that spray downstream from the TB (IOW, ALL modern engines) need/use "special" injectors…
Not at all. But there ARE specific and intentional differences between TBI and port injectors.
(11-19-2020, 07:24 PM)TurboRay Wrote:  .....they operate equally well in all applications, according to whatever pressure differential is present. Droplet sizes and spray patterns remain the same, with exception to the spray pattern being affected by
I respectfully disagree. TBI injectors are designed to operate at low pressures (often less than 20 psi) with a wide cone shaped pattern. Port injectors are designed to operate at 35+PSI with a narrower spray pattern, usually aimed at back side of the intake valve.
   

   
I'll keep my guns, money, and freedom. You keep the "change"
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#7

Like your upper picture, Ford's CFI injectors were a Bosch pintle design like port injectors and they ran at 39psi like Ford port injectors. The lower picture is of a Rochester/GM/etc. TBI low-pressure injector.
'72 Pinto Runabout-2.3T/T5/MS-II.
I'll show those guys who's in top place, I'll really give'em a hotrod race.
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#8

TurboRay Wrote:.
I can't speak to "slopes" or "breakpoints", but THIS Stan Weiss injector ID/data chart might be of some interest (scroll down for Bosch). The CFI/TBI 302's found in 80's Crown Vics and Grand Marquis' had two different injector sizes, generally acknowledged by most as being either 46 lb/hr or 52 lb/hr:

Blue-top "46's" = Ford I.D. E0SE-A1A.......Bosch 0280150400
White-top "52's" = Ford I.D. E4ZE-CA.......Bosch 0280150403

And, YES.......they can be used in place of "our" brown-tops with only slight fitment modifications. BUT......lowering f/pressure to compensate for the increased injector size would defeat the whole purpose of installing larger injectors. You might as well just retain yer 35's and increase the f/pres to, say, 60psi.

A better strategy, ASSuming stock EEC engine management, would be to retain the stock pressure (39 psi, with the FPR's manifold-reference hose disconnected) and let the O2 sensor regulate idle and low-speed AFR - but tighten the VAM spring to quasi-compensate for the increased fuel delivery at greater throttle openings and WOT. A WB02 sensor would be needed to determine the accuracy of such an adjustment.

Better still.....the ideal strategy would be to use a PiMP or similar standalone engine management that can be programmed for "X" injector size, then "fine-tunes" according to the (inter-connected) WB02 output. But, of course, that would tend to defeat the whole purpose of using cheap/JY-available CFI injectors, lol.

That chart is the extent of the data I've been able to find. And it at least gets me in the ballpark for what I'm looking for, but requires quite a bit of fine tuning.

I have a Moates Quarterhorse. That's why I'm trying to get the injector data to tune it accordingly. Otherwise all I can do is throw in the rated flow rate for high and low slopes, and leave the breakpoint in there as a WAG, then collect data until I can dial in what the values should be. I imagine the high slope is probably pretty accurate, but the low slope is anybody's guess. Some injectors like the FRPP 60lb/hr ones have less than a 5% difference between high and low slopes so it doesn't matter much. Others like the Bosch 210lb CNG injectors are a whopping 40% difference between the two.

And there is a bit of an advantage to running these injectors at a lower base pressure versus the stock ones at a much higher base pressure. It gives your fuel pump a lot more margin. I know mine is not happy at such high base pressures.

84CapriRS Wrote:Don't use CFI injectors in a port injection application. The spray pattern (cone pattern and droplet size) is designed for atmospheric pressure, not vacuum/boost.


If you have a wideband, none of the above really matters. Let your AFR reading be your guide and tune accordingly.

And don't use CFI injectors in a port injection application. The spray pattern (cone shape and droplet size) are optimized for atmospheric pressure (above the throttle plates), not vacuum/boost.

These injectors at least, all their reference data and applications appear to be at normal port EFI pressures.

Also getting the right data right off the bat makes life a whole lot easier when it comes to tuning.
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#9

(11-20-2020, 04:51 PM)wickedsnake00 Wrote:  .......there is a bit of an advantage to running these injectors at a lower base pressure versus the stock ones at a much higher base pressure.  
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I think you missed my point, wicked. I was simply implying that lowering the pressure on higher-flowing inj's (ASSuming stock engine management) would be tantamount to retaining the stock inj's......IOW, no increase in overall flow. That's why I said that you might as well (hypothetically) run higher f/pres on the stock 35's. I wasn't suggesting that you actually DO .that, lol.  <shrug>
Placerville, California
(former)  '78 2.3T Courier w/blow-thru Autolite 2bbl carb ~ (current)  '87 2.3T Ranger w/PiMP’d EFI
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#10

Well, I'll just add that the folks at WitchHunter Performance strongly advised me against using the Ford CFI injectors I sent them for cleaning / flow testing on my E85 conversion for the reasons I stated above. If they're wrong - so be it. I'll just wish you well on your project and move along! Wink
I'll keep my guns, money, and freedom. You keep the "change"
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