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Frt mount ic vs Water injection
#41

By Rara:
Quote: The "what if the car runs out of gas" argument is ridiculous, because, if the car runs out of fuel under boost, the fuel flow just stops, and the car makes no more power, engine dies, and you roll off to the side of the road, you fill it up again, and you are on your merry way.
ummm...did you ever see a car go lean under full boost? I did and it wasn't just pull over and fill up again.
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#42

Guess what....
AIR ISN'T AN IDEAL GAS.
Fortunatly, for low pressure and temps, you can assume it is, I am just causing trouble. :p
I personally don't think most of the pressure drop is due to the cooling of the air, but rather resistance in the intercooler.
The intercooler works because it reduces the volume of the air coming in, and thus makes the air denser. If the volume does not change, then there is no performence gain in having an intercooler. This means there must be a change in volume, which requires a drop in temps, and/or a raise in pressure(not possible in an intercooler).
Yes, reducing the temp does reduce pressure, but most of the drop on temp is seen as a reduction in volume (ie more power). If this wasn't true, then there would be no gain in having an intercooler, becuase the volume doesn't change.
Why would the pressure want to change rather than the volume? On one side of the intercooler, you have a pressure of 15 psi pushing through the intercooler, which makes the exit of the intercooler want to be at 15psi as well. If the flow rate was very small, you would have 15 psi on both sides, no matter what the temp drop is (this intercooler is 100% effiecient). As you increase the speed (without changing the drop in temp), you lose more and more pressure due to resistance to flow, but the other end still wants to be at 15 psi, so the volume changes. IF THERE IS NO RESISTANCE TO FLOW, NO MATTER HOW LARGE THE TEMP DROP IS, THERE WILL BE NO DROP IN PRESSURE. That is physics, the pressures will be equal, with different volumes. There should be little if any pressure drop due to the change in temperature.
What about water injection, does this create a pressure drop? No, since there is virtually no resistance to flow, the pressure on each side of the water injector will be the same, with different volumes. The pressure forces a change in volume since it has to be the same on both sides.
Sold - 1988 mustang: 12.2@111mph. Sad
Daily Driver - 1997 Mustang GT 14.0@99mph.
New Project: Factory Five Roadster
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#43

Holy crap I just missed this hole post. I've got re-read this.
About pressure drops blue88mustang, it's caused by resistance in the intercooler. When you go get a new intercooler it gives you a certain cfm flow with it's pressure drop meaning it will produce say, 800 cfm at 1.5 presure drop. 1.5 is it's back presure of resistance to 800cfm. This was an example only.
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#44

That is just my opinion, and it seems to work right.
Think about MikeSVOR's 3 core volvo intercooler, compared to a single core volvo intercooler...
Mike's 3 core has less resistance to flow than a single core, and it cools better because there is more surface area to which could be cooled.
The facts are that Mike's intercooler makes the air colder with a smaller pressure drop. If you thought most of the pressure drop was due to temp change, you would think there would be a greater pressure drop over Mike's intercooler over a single core volvo intercooler, but that is not the case.
Sold - 1988 mustang: 12.2@111mph. Sad
Daily Driver - 1997 Mustang GT 14.0@99mph.
New Project: Factory Five Roadster
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#45

Quote:Originally posted by blue88mustang:
IF THERE IS NO RESISTANCE TO FLOW, NO MATTER HOW LARGE THE TEMP DROP IS, THERE WILL BE NO DROP IN PRESSURE. That is physics, the pressures will be equal, with different volumes. ... the pressure on each side of the water injector will be the same, with different volumes.
Thats just the thing, you keep talking volume when you should be using the term density. the volume is constant...volume being what the air displaces...the volume of the intake tract. since that is staying the same and the "volume" of the air itself (density) is decreasing (well, increasing density), the air WILL lose pressure.

These are the basic fundamentals of turbo science guys...pressure, volume, temperature. no its not EXACTLY pv=nrt, but the basic relationships will always apply. someone should do the experiment that i previously suggested and see what you find.

as for 92boostednotch taking serious offense to what rara had to say...that was pretty immature and shitty man. i dont even think you understood what he was getting at. ive got no problem with you, and im sure he didnt either...before you made that jackass post at least. lets try and keep this a good tech. discussion. were all on the same side here.
'85 XR- C4, megasquirt, cfi's, E85, home-built IC, T3.
'91 F350 4x4- 460, megasquirt and HX55 coming.
'00 Lincoln LS- 5spd, begging for boost.
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#46

Good lord, I can't believe some of the arguments I am hearing here, its Jantastic! ™ too bad I don't have the time right now to respond, I will try to get back to this thread later on today though . . .
and as for you 92boostednotch, you have no clue what any particular "noob's" experience or knowledge is. I would be willing to bet money that I have more of both than you . . . but we can take that offline if you wish to pursue giving me some cash. Oh, and btw, you little crotch ferret, it wasn't even your post I was referring to. I think maybe its time for you start back in on your medication, thorazine, right?
1994 Cobra
2000 Contour SVT
1988 Merkur XR4Ti
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#47

blue88mustang hit the nail right on the head.

The only pressure drop you'll see is if your intercooler has a huge resistance in the first place.

Take my intercooler for instance.
Use it on a turbo'd lawn mower.

Now I don't care if you pour liquid nitrogen over the vanes, The air speed going through the intercooler has no resistance because there is so little air speed going through it into an engine that doesn't exceed the flow of the intercooler.
If there is 15 psi of boost on one side, (and here again) I don't care if you loose 1,000 degrees of temp, There WILL be 15 psi of boost on the other side.

Pressure drop was and still is miss used in scenarios. It isn't caused from a good intercooler. It's caused from a shitty one. Eg. too little flow for the engine it's on.

Rara, your cool, I don't have any beef with you. :cheers: Just setting the record straight and putting the scientists in line. Big Grin

I don't know who the dude was who just blew up and took all this tech personally. :headscratch: :nuts:

Mike SVOR
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#48

When I was saying volume, I was thinking that volume is a function of pressure and temperature.
I was thinking in the term of 1 mole. With more pressure, the volume decreases, and with less temp, the volume decreases. I was saying volume to make it easier to see it in the equations, and to keep the terms to a minimum.
Sold - 1988 mustang: 12.2@111mph. Sad
Daily Driver - 1997 Mustang GT 14.0@99mph.
New Project: Factory Five Roadster
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#49

Guys, take a step back and look at this for a second. Parts of what most people are saying are right, and parts of what most people are saying is wrong. PV=nRT. Yes, that is true. ANd an increase in pressure will cause an increase in temperature, and vice versa. It is also true that a DECREASE in temperature will cause a decrease in pressure.

All of that is perfectly fine and repeatable - in an isolated system.

Guess what, fellas, we don't have an isolated system. THe fact that air is constantly moving in and out of the system means that a pressure drop will be caused by anything impeding flow. And the fact that the intercooler does not seal the two sides from each other means that they would be at the same pressure if there were no airflow. YOu put the two together, and you'll find out that the intercooler creates a pressure drop in the system by resisting flow, not by cooling the air charge. It is equivalent to a resistor in an electrical circuit. YOu don't like that example, it is like a nozzle on a garden hose.

Did I just agree with Mike? Wow.

But, I do take issue with the statement "pressure drop is not caused by a good intercooler, it is caused by a (crappy) one." THere are two critical factors when it comes to intercooler design - resistance to flow, and efficiency. Often, they work against each other (internal fins, like on an NPR, are a restriction, but they help dissipate heat better than one like a Volvo which is open).

NOw, another thing - volume kind of changes, but not really. If you have the same size pipes on the inlet and outlet, a cross section of each gives you the same volume. Yet one side has cold air, and the other has hot air. THey may very well be at the same pressure. The difference, as someone pointed out, is density. An intercooler will increase the density of the air charge. The only volume change occurs when you change shapes of things. An intercooler may be absolutely huge, which will increase the volume. What this does is slow down the air as it moves through the intercooler, which gives it more time to do its work. THIs helps things bcause you'll have a higher mass of air flowing over teh intercooler, meaning more abililty to move the heat out of the intercooler.

Now, the fact that we are flowing air in a non-isolated system is why mass flow is what is so important, not pressure. You can't compare an isolated system like a tire to ours, because they are totally different animals. If it were as simple as pressure, there would be no benefit to using a larger turbo. I mean, a T3 will boost our engines well over 20PSI. Why bother with a hybrid? Because it increases the mass of air that can be flowed because it is cooler, and therefore more dense. Then you get into the whole volume flow thing in the engine when talking about how much air you can actually flow into the engine, but that is another argument for another day.

BUt, to get back to the original question, my take on it is that both would be stellar. However, liquid (water, water/alky, alky, propane - whatever) injection has a few drawbacks in that (to my knowledge) it can't be duty cycled. So, it really only hits its peak operating condition at a point. Meaning, you can spray X/time flow of water in the system. AT 3000 RPM and 20 PSI, the amount of air cooled by teh water is a lot higher than the air cooled by the water at 6000 RPM. If you are saturating teh air at 5000 RPM, then at 6000 RPM, you need more, and 3000 RPM, you are not evaporating it all. Further complicating the situation is the variation in boost pressure. At 15PSI, a given system will inject more water than at 20 PSI (less resistance to water flow). If you have the ability to raise the water's pressure (as a FPR does) with boost level, then that isn't an issue. But, that makes it really messy.

But, water injection has other benefits, like raising your effective compression ratio, and less need for fuel enrichment.

The good thing about an intercooler is that you don't have to worry about oversaturating the air. If it cools it off before it is all of the way through the intercooler, there are no bad side affects. Bottom line is that the intercooler is just a lot simpler, and offers most of the same benefits.

IMHO....if I were setting up a system, I would only consider water injection AFTER I had an intercooler in place. I'd shoot for the best intercooler I could find, and if there is still potential for benefit for water injection, then I'd pursue it.

Hey, waitaminute, that IS what I'm doing!
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#50

some good points king. as for equal pressures after temp drops though, i still think that p1v1/t1=p2v2/t2 applies. think of it like this. lets just say for argument's sake, your turbo is pushing 20 psi of 500 degree air. then it goes through a magical intercooler that can reduce its temp to absolute zero. the output of the intercooler is going to be air so dense, that it wants to occupy maybe 1/100th (just a guess) the space that it previously did...yet because the pipe size isnt decreasing, it MUST decrease in pressure. for every 100 cubic feet of air that goes into the IC, 1 cubic foot of air will leave the IC...yet the mass air in still equals mass air out. the difference is decreased pressure and therefore decreased volume over time. ya the turbo is going to keep pushing that pressure through, but the temp will keep dropping and keep reducing pressure regardless. for the pressure to remain the same on both sides, you would have to close all the valves and stop flow through the system, while keeping the turbo spinning for pressurization.

anyway, back to the original question, if youre not going to be doing any drag racing...maybe a big intercooler for starters wouldnt be a bad idea. if youre set on water/alky though, the problems with meter-ability (or whatever you wanna call it) can be worked around pretty easily. im putting together a system that will raise alky pressure 2 psi for every pound of boost with crap that i have laying around the garage.
'85 XR- C4, megasquirt, cfi's, E85, home-built IC, T3.
'91 F350 4x4- 460, megasquirt and HX55 coming.
'00 Lincoln LS- 5spd, begging for boost.
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